{"id":142067,"date":"2022-06-30T12:29:52","date_gmt":"2022-06-30T10:29:52","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.erasmusmagazine.nl\/en\/?p=142067"},"modified":"2025-12-19T11:26:21","modified_gmt":"2025-12-19T10:26:21","slug":"minister-dijkgraaf-were-going-to-provide-more-permanent-contracts","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.erasmusmagazine.nl\/en\/2022\/06\/30\/minister-dijkgraaf-were-going-to-provide-more-permanent-contracts\/","title":{"rendered":"Minister Dijkgraaf: ‘We’re going to provide more permanent contracts’"},"content":{"rendered":"

Former physicist now Minister Robbert Dijkgraaf prefers to start every problem with a clean slate. For instance, why are there so many barriers between teaching and research, he asks rhetorically. Can\u2019t they be removed?<\/p>\n

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Robbert Dijkgraaf, Minister of Education, Culture and Science.<\/span><\/p>

\n\t\n\n<\/svg>\n<\/span>\n\tImage by:<\/span>\n\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tMartijn Beekman\/Rijksoverheid<\/span>\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t<\/p>\n<\/figcaption><\/figure>

\u201cI\u2019ve lived the scientific life, but now I look at it from a bird\u2019s-eye view\u201d, says Robbert Dijkgraaf, Minister of Education, Culture and Science. \u201cI have to interact with many more different kinds of people, like my colleagues in Cabinet, those in other government ministries and MPs.\u201d<\/p>\n

You often underscore the importance of \u2018facts\u2019. Do you think it\u2019s a pity that facts sometimes play such a marginal role in politics?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWhen I just started here, I kept hearing the phrase \u2018then it becomes political\u2019. It took me a little time to get used to that. It means that you can take all kinds of rational steps and prepare for all kinds of eventualities, until you get to a crossroads. Which road do you want to take? That is a political decision. But it also happens in our own lives. You can\u2019t always let yourself be driven by the facts, you have to weigh things up.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018There are forces that are bigger than we are\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

You also have to consult with others and make compromises.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cPolitics often seems to move at a snail\u2019s pace, while time flies by very quickly. For example, we were talking about the new basic student grant that we want to roll out in September 2023. Then all of a sudden we realised: we really don\u2019t have a moment to lose!\u201d<\/p>\n

How does a scientist deal with political decision making?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cI always try to take a moment \u2013 just like in scientific research \u2013 to wipe the blackboard clean. Then we start at the beginning constructing what we are trying to do. And after that we can proceed to policy papers and decisions.\u201d<\/p>\n

But take the compensation for students under the student loan system, for instance. First you were given the funding, a billion euros, and only after that could you actually investigate students\u2019 real needs.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cIt\u2019s true, you can\u2019t always start from scratch. Negotiations for the coalition agreement took nearly a year, so I can do little to change that. But it\u2019s no different in scientific research. The laws of nature also deal the cards: I sometimes hoped to find a particle that ultimately turned out not to exist. There are forces that are bigger than we are.\u201d<\/p>\n

Just accept things, and then cheerfully move on?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cYes, that might be a good way of putting it.\u201d<\/p>\n

You just set a new trajectory for higher education and research, and distributed billions of euros. How do you weigh things up in that case?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cFor that policy a certain budget had been set aside, about a billion euros per year, and we already had various reports and requests. It required a great deal more calibration and fine tuning than the compensation for students under the student loan system. So you conduct talks and gather ideas. I always say, as minister you have the least comfortable seat: you experience all the forces and counter-forces, and that\u2019s as it should be.\u201d<\/p>\n

What\u2019s really notable is the 300 million euros per year in working capital for researchers, with half destined for lecturers who will be given permanent jobs.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cIt\u2019s a stimulus for universities to offer permanent positions to young lecturers [usually aged 30 to 40; ed.]. We want to free up more time and space for lecturers who have little or no time for research. It\u2019s also a way of lightening workload pressure.\u201d<\/p>\n

But isn\u2019t it mostly postdocs who keep getting one temporary contract after another?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThose postdocs would like to have permanent contracts, which is possible if they become lecturers. So we have to create more lecturer positions too.\u201d<\/p>\n

Wouldn\u2019t it be better to \u2018demand\u2019 permanent jobs instead of offering \u2018stimulus\u2019?<\/strong><\/p>\n

He smiles. \u201cAdditionally, we\u2019re going to create more permanent faculty through the sector plans.\u201d<\/p>\n

Dijkgraaf has also earmarked 200 million euros per year for \u2018sector plans\u2019 in many different disciplines. The universities are in negotiations about teaching and research within the disciplines, such as humanities and natural sciences, in order to avoid overlap and complement each other.<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018Those postdocs would like to have permanent contracts, which is possible if they become lecturers\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

How will the sector plans lead to more permanent jobs?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWe\u2019re going to set administrative objectives with the universities, and we\u2019ll be monitoring things very closely. We want to involve those who alerted us to the need for permanent contracts.\u201d<\/p>\n

But you won\u2019t be making use of fixed targets?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWe will of course communicate our wishes. The new arrangements won\u2019t contain any fixed numbers, but we\u2019ll be asking a committee to monitor things.\u201d<\/p>\n

You recently said that universities and universities of applied sciences should really function as one institution. What did you mean?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWe in the Netherlands have already made a lot of progress. Our country is in fact surprisingly good in collaboration. We find it really easy to ask colleagues to get involved in our work. That\u2019s different in the US. When I was there I saw how institutions sometimes just a few kilometres apart are competing with each other in the same subject. Thanks to our superior ability to collaborate, we can handle the international competition. There\u2019s no scientific field that we can\u2019t keep up with. But everyone can\u2019t do everything. We don\u2019t all have to keep all the balls in the air, so let\u2019s come to an agreement about it.\u201d<\/p>\n

Can you give an example of programmes or departments that are currently overrepresented?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cNo, I\u2019m not going to say anything about that now. But I\u2019ve seen how the sector plans helped in physics and chemistry. It gives a university freedom to do more in one field \u2013 say, organic chemistry \u2013 while leaving other subjects to other universities.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018Higher professional education holds a key position\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

Universities are attracting too many students, while universities of applied sciences are experiencing regional shrinkage. Couldn\u2019t universities of applied sciences offer academic education in regions with population decline?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cIn the fall I will be starting a preliminary study: what exactly is the role of each type of education? Higher professional education holds a key position because of its close connections with the job market and the professional depth of the programmes they offer.\u201d<\/p>\n

Is a new university in one of the depopulated regions a possibility? In the past, there were also professional colleges that became universities.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s a very good question, and it has to be possible to ask all the questions. Right now the universities of applied sciences are receiving 100 million euros per year to develop research with a practical focus. The idea is to develop research in professional education further and make teaching more innovative. That\u2019s why we\u2019re starting the professional doctorate in universities of applied sciences, for example [the professional version of the academic PhD; ed].\u201d<\/p>\n

Which possibilities will you be exploring in the fall?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThere are many barriers between the vocational colleges and higher education. Couldn\u2019t we remove a couple of them, taking the study paths of individual students as our starting point? That\u2019s what I want to check out. In fact, I believe that we should place senior secondary vocational education and training, higher professional education and university education on a continuum and not in a hierarchical order. I myself made the transition from academic education to higher professional education when I went to the Gerrit Rietveld Academy. That wasn\u2019t a step down, but a step sideways.\u201d<\/p>\n

Will you also be starting this exploration with a clean slate?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cYes, it\u2019s a good idea to look at the system with fresh eyes. What guiding principles should we use? There are all kinds of things on our wish-list that we hadn\u2019t yet thought of when this \u2018house\u2019 was built. You could think here of such things as valorisation, knowledge security, social security, flexible education, and so on. The nice thing is that teaching faculty do often look beyond the boundaries. They are actively engaged with the future, while the structures lag behind. Renewal has to start from below, and politics has to offer space for it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018There are many barriers between the vocational colleges and higher education. Couldn\u2019t we remove a couple of them, taking the study paths of individual students as our starting point?\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

You said that we shouldn\u2019t arrange things in a hierarchy. But generally speaking academics earn more than those in higher professional education. So then it makes sense that people think that way, doesn\u2019t it?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cReality is always more complex. It\u2019s difficult to predict what you\u2019re going to earn with any particular degree. You can make a lot of money in the engineering sector, at all levels. But income is not the only dimension. I talk to a lot of students who say, I want to do something later on to help society.\u201d<\/p>\n

I also hear them say that they would like to buy a house later on.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cBut in my discussions with students I have yet to hear someone ask, which degree can I earn the most money with later on? Of course students want a home, and a job with a future. They quite rightly have concerns. I often say that to my Cabinet colleagues: let\u2019s look at policy as young people would look at it. Reintroduction of the basic student grant will help, but we have to stay on our toes.\u201d<\/p>\n

Is it true that you want to do something about the rapid 200 euro rise in tuition fees?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cI\u2019m going to see how I can cushion the tuition fee rise, because this is certainly a big jump.\u201d<\/p>\n

Students also complain about stress and performance anxiety. Your predecessor wanted to get rid of the binding recommendation on continuation of studies for those reasons. What\u2019s your response?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWe\u2019re going to see whether we can move the binding recommendation to second year, so that students have more time. This strikes me as reasonable. I was shocked when I heard about the performance anxiety, mental health issues, stress and insecurity students experience, which they tell me about in our discussions. We have to be careful; we as a society can\u2019t put unlimited pressures on our students.\u201d<\/p>\n

Where do you think that pressure comes from?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWe have an educational system that is unique in the world: it\u2019s accessible and of a very high quality. I sometimes think, why doesn\u2019t the whole world do what we do? But it is too high pressure, with faculty who don\u2019t have time any more to do research and students who have to finish their degrees as quickly as possible. It\u2019s partially peer pressure. Society exerts a lot of pressure on young people, which they internalize, and ultimately they make themselves completely crazy. It\u2019s part of my job to say, can\u2019t we slow things down a bit? That\u2019s why my plans also deal with student wellbeing, something that has to become a higher priority.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018We\u2019re going to be looking into that\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t\t\t
\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t–<\/span>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tDijkgraaf about students having a say\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/figcaption>\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

And yet only a fraction of the money you disbursed last week will be spent on that.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cDiscussions about policy are often \u2018material\u2019. About money, buildings and equipment. But the immaterial aspect is also important: what\u2019s the atmosphere, the culture, to what extent do we care about each other?\u201d<\/p>\n

Students were given more opportunity for input when they lost the basic student grant. Now the basic student grant is coming back. Does that mean they will have to give up their input?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cI like to repeat: the resources that are freed up by the student loan system will remain in higher education. The basic student grant is coming back, but the extra funding will be retained. Moreover, we will now be getting a billion euro top up for lecturers. We believe student input is important, so we\u2019re going to be looking into that.\u201d<\/p>\n

Why is it so difficult to set a standard across the board, for support to student participation bodies, for example?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThere are now institutions who are doing more than we as a government would demand, and we don\u2019t want to hold them back.\u201d<\/p>\n

Ministers are often \u2018calling on\u2019 or \u2018encouraging\u2019 institutions.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThe institutions are autonomous, and you need to let things be created from below, but in my policies I certainly take responsibility at the national level. Take knowledge security, it doesn\u2019t make sense for each research group to re-invent the wheel. We have to have some kind of national \u2018dike watch\u2019.\u201d<\/p>\n

You recently withdrew the law giving universities more control on the inflow of international students.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThe same thing applies here. I can fill up the toolkit and then every farmer can patrol their own section of the dike, but that doesn\u2019t mean that the dike will be well protected. We need to have a national strategy when it comes to internationalisation: what do we want to achieve together? Such a strategy is lacking right now. Nevertheless, I\u2019m in discussions with universities about short-term solutions.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018It\u2019s not enough that the door is open to everyone\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t\t\t
\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t–<\/span>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tAbout equal oppertunity\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/figcaption>\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

As a minister you represent D66. How is your party\u2019s colour visible in your policy?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cOne of D66\u2019s strong beliefs is putting the development of the individual front and centre. Personal freedom is very important to me. Society asks for all sorts of things, but young people know quite well what they want. We can encourage them to go in a certain direction, but ultimately they decide themselves. And equal opportunity is part of that. We have a wonderful educational system, but many people fall between the cracks; it\u2019s not for them. We have to do something about that. It\u2019s not enough to say that the door is open to everyone. For some people, it\u2019s a long road to get there.\u201d<\/p>\n

And in research?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThat was the subject of my first public lecture as minister. Knowledge and expertise are the lifeblood of this country, but at the same time there\u2019s a lot of pressure on science. We have to stand behind the facts and behind the researchers who present us with the facts. We can\u2019t say, science is just another opinion, and I have an alternative report here, so now we\u2019re even. We have to defend science.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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