{"id":140051,"date":"2022-05-13T11:42:22","date_gmt":"2022-05-13T09:42:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.erasmusmagazine.nl\/en\/?p=140051"},"modified":"2025-12-19T11:26:17","modified_gmt":"2025-12-19T10:26:17","slug":"research-councils-boss-marcel-levi-you-could-allocate-the-money-on-the-basis-of-excellence","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.erasmusmagazine.nl\/en\/2022\/05\/13\/research-councils-boss-marcel-levi-you-could-allocate-the-money-on-the-basis-of-excellence\/","title":{"rendered":"Research Council’s boss Marcel Levi: \u2018You could allocate the money on the basis of excellence\u2019"},"content":{"rendered":"

Doctor and scientist Marcel Levi is sometimes asked what he gets out of working for the Dutch Research Council. He has been at the helm there for a year now. Wouldn\u2019t he prefer working in a hospital or at a university?<\/p>\n

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Marcel Levi.<\/span><\/p>

\n\t\n\n<\/svg>\n<\/span>\n\tImage by:<\/span>\n\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tHarmen de Jong<\/span>\t\t\t\t\t<\/span>\n\t<\/p>\n<\/figcaption><\/figure>

But then you don\u2019t understand how interesting it is to head up an organisation that disburses nearly a billion euros annually in research funding, says Levi. \u201cI have a fair knowledge of the academic world, but now I go to places I have never been before. Research in the field of social sciences and technology is new to me. In those disciplines they have different thought processes, there\u2019s a different culture.\u201d<\/p>\n

What are those differences?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cHow can I say this diplomatically? STEM researchers are proud people. They believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are among the best in the world and they want people to know it. The type of conversations you have with social scientists are entirely different. They say: we have to teach too much already and it\u2019s only getting worse, nobody loves us, there\u2019s not enough money\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n

Researchers sometimes feel that NWO tends to lean towards STEM.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cAt NWO we take those differences into account. Considering the scale of the open competition and available grants, we disburse roughly as much on STEM as on research in the humanities.<\/em> But the latter disciplines are a lot bigger. It\u2019s a tricky issue: in what respect are they actually bigger? In terms of the number of students and scientists or the importance of the research itself? We\u2019re bad at that sort of discussion in the Netherlands. The allocation of funding is based largely on what has happened in the past and every attempt to change it founders on arguments that are intended mainly to defend established positions. I don\u2019t know whether it will ever change. When it comes to the allocation, there are always people that think, this criterion doesn\u2019t suit me so I\u2019m against it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018Social scientists say: nobody loves us\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

You managed the teaching hospitals of University College London. Was it any different in England?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cOh God, no. On one occasion we discussed a new allocation model, but it was never about the model itself, only about the results. But in the Netherlands we aim for consensus: it goes ahead only if everyone is in favour. In England it\u2019s the government that has the biggest say in what happens.\u201d<\/p>\n

Is it unwieldy, the way it happens here?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cI actually enjoy differences of opinion, because you can learn from one another. NWO is a bridge-builder. We never serve our own interests: all the money that comes in we pass on to others. But we have a lot of knowledge, which we use to bring parties together. For instance, in cooperation with others we have battled to get more government money for science and that has been hugely successful.\u201d<\/p>\n

Has enough money been made available?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cYes, I think so. For the next ten years at least. And even if you doubled the current amount, I\u2019m not sure that it would be worthwhile. Say that you suddenly gave the universities an extra 80 million. I don\u2019t think they could spend it straight away. You need a plan and good people.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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\n\t\t\u2018We don\u2019t get any extra money for the workload\u2019\n\t<\/blockquote>\n\n\t<\/figure>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t<\/div>\n

Will the money help to ease the workload?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cA little bit, perhaps. I\u2019m certain that the workload in the academic field is high, but that isn\u2019t the best possible argument for spending money on it. Everyone has a high workload, including nurses and police officers. We don\u2019t get the money for the workload but for knowledge and innovation. They are what is important in helping the Netherlands move forward.\u201d<\/p>\n

NWO sometimes gets the blame for the academic workload. Everyone is working overtime to write grant applications but the vast majority miss out.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWorkload is a catch-all term. It has more to do with ridiculous administration on outdated IT systems than with the number of hours worked. Or it\u2019s about tasks that you simply don\u2019t enjoy. You think, great, I\u2019ll go and work at the university, I\u2019ll do a bit of research and teaching. Then, out of the blue, you have to read through 300 theses in a weekend and write an application for research funding.\u201d<\/p>\n

But the stampede for NWO funding means that many researchers write their application for nothing.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cYes, sometimes we can accept only 10 percent of the applications and naturally that isn\u2019t effective. It\u2019s a huge waste of researchers\u2019 valuable time. But surely we aren\u2019t the only ones to blame? You can do two things: get hold of more money or make fewer applications. There\u2019s no other way round it.\u201d<\/p>\n

And indeed there is more money coming in.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThat\u2019s great, but beware. If that money goes mainly to the universities, they will take on young people, who will probably think, you know what, I\u2019m going to make an application to the Dutch Research Council. So we will get even more applications. That\u2019s why the funding given to the universities needs to be in balance with the funding given to NWO, otherwise the problems won\u2019t go away.\u201d<\/p>\n

Or you give NWO less money so that researchers no longer apply to the agency for funding.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cBut NWO exists for a reason. We allocate money on the basis of quality and excellence. We also fund initiatives that are hard to implement at a single university. NWO works, and that\u2019s something to treasure. But indeed, we would prefer to accept 20 to 25 percent of all the applications. That\u2019s possible only with extra money.\u201d<\/p>\n

Or with fewer applications. Who could make sure that happens?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cWe\u2019re not going to seal up our letterbox. The universities ought to decide to send only the best research to NWO. That is definitely their intention but it rarely happens. They frequently don\u2019t know what\u2019s going on. Sometimes we point out to a vice-chancellor that the university is sending in rather a lot of applications. The usual answer is, I know nothing about that\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n\n\t

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